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And now a word from our sponsors:

toadsmoothy2.deviantart.com/

:giggle:

btw, Toadsmoothy2 is also me. :)
Thank you, Watchers of Gentlemansclubstock, for your support... all 1,418 of you! :lol: I'm sorry that I don't have time to be more involved on this site. The fact is, this stock site is something of an afterthought for me... something I do because I feel it is is useful for others. I am primarilly a genre photographer. My main site here on dA is :icontoadsmoothy2: although I also maintain :icontoadsmoothy: for miscellaneous stuff I'm not very good at. hahaha

For almost 30 years I have collected antique photographs and printed images of antique photographs, not only of Nude subjects but all subjects, simply because I love these images. My submissions here come from actual antique photographs, scanned images from old photography books and journals and some gleened from the internet. Regardless the provinance, I maintain that the the photographs themselves are over 70 years old, and therefore Public Domain, free for anyone to use and impossible for anyone to re-copyright in their original form.

If anyone can prove to me or anyone else that any of these actual photographs are less than 70 years old, I will remove that submission immediately. But don't come to me and say you saw such and such an image in a book printed yesterday. While a book printed yesterday may contain an image found here, the actual image is Public Domain and free for anyone to use. The fact is that these images have been reproduced numerous times in various places over the years and due to their age no one has sole rights to them.

I personally don't care what you do with these images. Download the lot. Make money off them if you want. Its not my thing, but whatever. I didn't take the photographs. I don't own the copyright, no one does any longer. If you use them in your artwork here on dA please let me know in comment, on my front page or via note with a link to it and I'll place it in my Favorites gallery here.

Simple as that.

Enjoy yourselves.

:heart::peace:
About this whole RULES issue anyway. :giggle:

I've gotten permission from Lolly (an administrator) to post his response here for our mutual enlightenment on efforts now underway to re-write the RULES to clearly allow Public Domain material on stock sites and for use in artists' submissions here on dA.

I will post here the entire thread of the conversation which, of course, runs from the last to the first note.

I will say here that, unlike my dealings with other un-named administrators, Lolly has been a stand-up guy through all this.

Now for the recent conversation between Lolly and I:
..............................................................................................
lolly said the following:

By all means feel free to post this, and for sure the wording will be changed. We are actually working up a revision of the etiquette policy right now to clarify it somewhat while we are waiting on reworking the entire system :)

----------
GentlemansClubStock said the following:

Thank you for your response.

When the rules are rewritten, I hope they are worded in such a way that all Public Domain images in dA stocks and all art submitted to dA employing such images are protected.

A lot of people I know here are understandably conserned about this issue. Will you give me permission to post your response here, in its entirety, in my dA Journals, as a way of informing them where the process stands and allaying their conserns?

Tracy
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lolly said the following:

Well, the answer to this particular question is, no, this will not happen again. I have spoken at length to all staff who have the ability to move, relocate or otherwise delete galleries how they should treat vintage stock, and to really pay close attention to stock in general.
The primary medium of most people here is obviously digital art, and a good amount of that would be photo manipulations.

But that is just the symptom of a larger problem which I am going to be taking care of by mid year, and that problem is a lot of our policy is becoming outdated and rules and laws have changed a lot since much of it was written. 5, 6 years ago nobody really knew how a lot of the laws that are now in effect would shape up and policy was written to err on the side of caution. Not to mention it was much easier to police things a few years ago as we had far fewer members and submissions so a greater deal of time could be spent on individual investigation and in addition we had a larger amount of volunteers. Nowadays the staff on CEA is paid but only consists of 2 people. The positive is they are dedicated to the job and have set hours whereas volunteers come and go and can't be held accountable due to the nature of being a volunteer.
The drawback is, we currently have 2.
But within the next 2 months I will be adding more people to the team and aiming for a system that allows a 72 hour window to review removals of images. Basically one team goes out and does what they do now, view reported images, and review galleries etc and hide images as opposed to remove them. This would put them in a list for a second team to review and ultimately decide if they should stay or not. In addition to this I am bringing $realitysquared, and $Moonbeam13 out to LA this summer to entirely rewrite our policy from the ground up, keep what works, scrap what doesn't, add new things and overall fine tune it with the mentality of what is good for the artist as opposed to what is "safest" for the site.

I mean, what's the point of being the biggest art community out there if we don't take some risks on behalf of the artists ourselves? But the gist of it is it is basically time to clear out the dust and clutter from the old administration that was primarily coders and non artists who wrote the backbone of the policy and replace it with policy written by people who are all artists themselves and all came from the community originally :)

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GentlemansClubStock said the following:

First of all, I want to thank you again for the way in which you handled the former problem of my deleted gallery...not so much that you reinstated the material, which I am glad of, but that you treated me like a human being, which was not done when my gallery was deleted.

I still have questions about the submission policy and you're the only administrator I know to ask. I've never gotten in trouble here before so I've never recieved the standard submission removal note I did. In reading it I'm not surprised that some administrator removed my gallery. And it is not satisfactory that one administrator can read the rules one way and delete a whole gallery and another administrator can read the rules another way and reinstate a whole gallery. This disparity makes me very uneasy and I know a lot of people have similar questions about these rules because they've expressed them on my sites. But I come here to you to find answers.

The notice I recieved states:

"Your submissions may not contain material or images which were not created entirely through your own effort; this means that you cannot simply collect photographs, artworks and other images, writings or scans from printed books/magazines and submit them to your account. You are not allowed to submit "reworked", "edited" or otherwise "modified" material which you obtained from other sources."

The way I read this, my submissions WOULD be in violation. But so would every stock provider on dA who submits anything scanned from any, even public domain source, not just vintage nudes. There are hundreds of old illustrations and text images of all sorts in dA stocks. Should they all be removed? And what of dA manip and collage artists who rely on these images? What of dA artists who submit collage and manip work using materials clearly NOT old enough to be in public domain? By these rules many modern artists of note would not be able to submit their work on dA.

The whole issue makes me very uneasy. I mean, I don't intend to be a pain in the ass here. I never worried too much about these issues because I knew that what I was submitting was no longer under copyright and thats all I thought of. But the rules above are extremely restrictive. I worry that this could indeed happen again and again when some other admin gets a complaint and decides to go on a rampage according to HIS reading of the rules. And believe me, I would never have raised a fuss if someone had found that I had accidentally submitted one or two images that were actually under copyright. I'm not perfect and I would have accepted the judgement. But it seems this was not a copyright issue but rather based on other aspects of the rules above. And the fact that entire galleries were in jeapordy dependent on different interpretations of the rules indicates that there is a deeper problem here. And I come to you here for some answers.

Tracy aka Toadsmoothy(2) aka Gentlemansclubstock
Well, since I haven't heard back from my query to dA staff last night I'll go ahead and open this can of worms.

This is the official note I received when my Gallery here was deleted:

"Your deviations were removed due to violation of one of the following policies:

An administrator has removed your deviation as being a violation of copyright.

Your submissions may not contain material or images which were not created entirely through your own effort; this means that you cannot simply collect photographs, artworks and other images, writings or scans from printed books/magazines and submit them to your account. You are not allowed to submit "reworked", "edited" or otherwise "modified" material which you obtained from other sources.

This behavior is known as plagiarism, copyright infringement, or by the slang term of "ripping" and is an illegal behavior. Your submissions and all the material within it must have been created entirely by your own hand and through your own effort.

If you continue to violate our copyright policy your account may be suspended for a period of time or banned.

If you feel this removal was in error, or have questions regarding it, then please visit the deviantART Help Desk in order to submit a Copyright Violation Inquiry. Be certain to include the above link and title of your deviation in your inquiry for a prompt response.

Please do not reply to this note as it is an automated process and will not be answered and please do not bring these issues into the Forums or other areas of deviantART.

Thank you,

deviantART staff"

As I read this, Gentlemansclubstock and other stock sites like it ARE in violation of the rules and SHOULD be removed. But not only us but every piece of stock on dA that was once published, even those pieces old enough to be in the Public Domain, should be removed. Every old photograph, illustration, advertisement, diagram, bit of text, all of it should be removed. Beyond this, it seems to likewise call into question every dA artist's submission, hundreds of them, that USE such material whether got from dA or elsewhere. The rule as stated above seems quite clear:

"Your submissions may not contain material or images which were not created entirely through your own effort; this means that you cannot simply collect photographs, artworks and other images, writings or scans from printed books/magazines and submit them to your account. You are not allowed to submit "reworked", "edited" or otherwise "modified" material which you obtained from other sources."

If this is the rule then either the rule must be changed or every dA submission in any way using any material "not created entirely through your own effort" should be deleted by dA administration. Every manipulation, every collage piece that in any way incorporates any image you did not make yourself should be deleted. I just wonder why this wouldn't extend to all copyrighted images, like Warhol's Campbell Soup cans. In fact these rules would mean that a great many modern artists of note would not be able to submit their art on dA. …not that they would want to, all things considered.

This rule above stated is a problem. It needs to be changed.

What do you think?
I have recieved an apology from dA and all 136 current images have been reinstalled in my Gentlemansclubstock Gallery by them. I appreciate their doing this and will seriously reconsider my former determination to leave dA. I would have contacted them before, asking questions about their decision to remove my Gallery but the notes I recieved when they deleted the Gallery clearly stated that I was not to contact them with questions about their decision. So I didn't. In turn, I made a decision of my own, which was to leave. But now they have, for whatever reason, changed their minds. So, I must in good faith reconsider.

Tracy
These are just a very few of the wonderful pieces of art made using my stock, stock which dA has just totally removed. It makes me wonder what sort of art dA would find acceptable? Perhaps they don't want such beautiful and interesting art made. If they do it would be hard to explain their actions in totally removing the stock that at least partly made them possible.

:thumb50092239::thumb50092534:
The Star by readheadgirl

Mature Content

Dejah Thoris -Princess of Mars by DocRedfield

The day out there by cyrano82:thumb47195778:
Red Red Red by FriendlyGrudge Sweet Dreams by Gelso
Angelicry by tsheva Female Figure Sketch by the-hurukai
:thumb45607372::thumb43174517:
:thumb43407328:

Mature Content

Seesaw by BlackEngel

:thumb42785366::thumb41848973:

Mature Content

Artistic Nude 7 by artamatikrose

Mature Content

Nude by cupcakeart

Siren by wildheartfreesoul

Mature Content

decadence by futurowoman

Lady by catae:thumb38526119:
Love by ZllotaRyba sweet dreams by smurfPhactory
singing bear by dunezx

Mature Content

a b     i n i t i o by muadhnait


This journal originally submitted on :icontoadsmoothy2:
I have maintained at least two paid sites on dA for years. The principle sites have been Toadsmoothy and Toadsmoothy2. Then I started a third paid site...which dA has just killed.

Eleven months ago I decided to start a stock site because I was setting on literally thousands of tasteful, high quality vintage nude photos, most over 100 years old and many from the mid 1800s. The copyright, if any existed, would have expired long ago and I felt these images would be helpful for artists, considering the generally sad state of nude stock on dA. I was even assured by a dA administrator early on that the material I was submitting was well within dA rules. This administrator even defended my site against a moralistic cretan and had them banned.

Over the course of these 11 months this site :icongentlemansclubstock: became quite popular. In fact, I have 741 Watchers there. And its not because I kissed any ass. I let them know right off that I could not Watch them back or even answer comments because I was too busy on the Toadsmoothy sites. Gentlemansclubstock was simply my way of sharing what I had with those who would use it. And use it they did as you will see if you check out the Favorites Gallery on that site which contains ONLY those art works made using my stock.

Now, without warning or any consideration whatsoever, dA has deleted every one of the hundreds of images in my Gallery there. They emptied it except for my I.D. I'm surprised they didn't delete my avatar as well. They left curt notices that ALL of these images were suddenly now against the copyright rules. What copyright? Whose copyright? Why NOW and not before?...no explanation.

And I'm not the only one affected. A friend who had a similar site proffering antique nude images :iconpostcardsstock: was likewise shut down. In fact she is the one who notified me of the dark-of-night massacre. And on both of our sites, I'm talking high class, high quality images.

So, this means that dA artists no longer have access to these images to use as models for drawing and painting, or to use in manips. Artists on dA are stuck with what they can find in the nude stock section here. There are a few really good nude stock providers but most of it is grotesque, poor quality crap. Its good to know that dA is trying to facilitate Art eh? Dumb fuckers.

I've been around here for a few years now. Hell, so many old timers have left I'm one of the oldies now. When I first joined dA was a great site. But things changed at the top. and I held on through the coup when the current management of dA took control and started changing things... usually for the worse. I hung on as I watched many of my old friends leave dA for greener pastures....

I'm done. This was the last straw for me. I don't know why anyone stays here. Its not like there aren't alternatives to dA out there. The way its going, in a few years dA will consist only of Anime, cutter photos, vacation snaps and haggard old broads submitting shots of their twats. Not something I want to be associated with any longer.
I'm with the rest of the rats who have already left this sinking piece of shit.

Unfortunately, this will mean leaving so many Friends here...people I have come to know and love, some even in person. Thus, even though I'll never give these bastards another red cent nor submit another photo here, I will probably keep up with my Friends. I would miss you all too much.

Tracy

originally submitted on :icontoadsmoothy2:
dA in it's infinite stupidity has removed ALL of my deviations from this site, even though I was assured by an administrater long ago that they were fine. But, now they have removed them. Of course, I'm not the only one whose deviations they've removed. They have also removed me. Fuck dA. I have paid for three sites for years here but no more. I am through. Farewell. I am off to join another artists community. dA is not the only one out there.
I obviously don't spend a lot of time on this account. I simply post these images here for the benefit of others. I am gratified that this has become a popular site. It simply means that we all appreciate feminine beauty as Nature intended.

If you use this material and send me a link I will Fav it. Other than that I don't respond to comments, Favs or Watches because I simply don't have time to keep up with it all. There are so many of you!! :laughing: I have two other photo sites which take up all my time. So...these images are here for your use...and you may use them any way you like. Download the entire library if you wish. They aren't my images so I really don't care...and I imagine the actual photographers, if they can be known, don't care because they are dead as are their models. My other sites are NOT stock sites however, they are my photography and I would get rather testy if anyone stole images from those sites. Also, I am much more gregarious on those sites haha especially my main site at :icontoadsmoothy2:....

This is to reiterate, these are NOT my photographs. They are antiques, vintage photos, many over 100 years old. I'm quite sure the copyright has expired if there ever was any on them in the first place. Indeed, for most of these photos the photographer is unknown. Many are simply naughty postcards once sold in shops in Paris, London, NY in brown paper packages to gentlemen, along with their brandy and cigars. Some say: "Hey, I saw this photo in such and such a book!" Yeah, so? They didn't take the photo...they collected it from an antique dealer or some such place and published it. There are many such published collections of antique photographs out there and they're all over the Internet. :shrug: If you have a problem with said provenance then don't watch this site. Or bitch to dA about it...although I've already heard from a dA admin that they have no problem with what I'm doing here. So, there ya go. :shrug:

Some of the photos I've been putting up have been provided to my by :iconpostcardsstock: so go join her site too! She has much new material for you.

Check out my main Photo site:

:icontoadsmoothy2:
:iconpostcardsstock: is a friend who shared many of the images she found with me, and I inturn have shared them with you.

She has her own site up on dA now and you should check it out at the icon above.

Don't forget to check out my main photo site: :icontoadsmoothy2:

that is all...;)